Noah Brehmer in Conversation with Mila Zacharias.
Mila, the Time/Store’s NYC location was in operation for around 4 months; as the store manager at this location what were/are some of the most enticing attributes of this alternative economic infrastructure?
For me one of the most enticing attributes of the Time/Store was having a place where Time/Bank users could spend their credits to buy basic necessities such as toiletries, food and even books, instead of using it to buy services on-line. Even though Time/Store functions as an extension of Time/Bank, it operates in a different manner because of its physicality. e-flux’s Time/Bank online platform makes it easier for people within the cultural community to network and potentially work together, creating a parallel micro-economy where users are not geographically bound, whereas the time/store generates discursive buying and exchange encounters.
Could you describe some exciting encounters you had at the store that may be different than typical experiences in consumer environments?
I think a great number of encounters were fruitful and not at all typical, mainly because a lot of the time, very valuable discussions would arise about e-flux’s Time/Bank and time banks in general, in contrast with more traditional economies of exchange and even bartering. In the past I have worked in what you could call typical consumer environments, and the main difference I want to point out here, is that in those contexts, consumers don’t usually question or try to understand the structure within which they are buying something. They go in, maybe ask for help about a product (not about the store), pay and leave. At Time/Store that dynamic was very different, as people were as much interested in the concept as they were in buying. I didn’t encounter one person who didn’t request more information about the project.
So the store’s function was not only to support transaction, but also discussion, debate, and public gathering. Could you tell me a little more about the discursive side of the Time/Store, Mila?
These debates and discussions happened very naturally, they were not pre-planed events. But we did have a special appraisals event at Time/Store and for me it was one of the most interesting days. People could bring in a series of things to be evaluated and potentially purchased to be included in the store inventory for sale. Christoph Cox (critic, theorist and curator of art and music) and Laura Barlow (curator) joined us for an afternoon and people brought all sorts of things, from a t-shirt, books and even an artwork to be evaluated. The process of negotiating was extremely interesting: how do you evaluate an artwork in a time-based economy? Do you evaluate based on the time it took the artist to create it? For example, it becomes very hard in the case that the work is conceptual as it’s a product of a culmination of experiences that cannot be easily measured by labor-time. After a long discussion, in which the curator Laura posed many questions to the artist, like: how much experience does he have? Has he had any exhibitions? Was the work a one off or were there more copies? They finally came to an agreement that both felt comfortable with and the transaction was made. The funny part was that while all this took place, another person accompanying the discussion, got really interested in the artwork bought. He really wanted it, but he didn’t have any time-currency to purchase it. So that was when he sold a t-shirt to Time/Store so he could buy the artwork, it was very endearing.
Is there anything that comes to mind concerning transactions at the Time/Store you think would be helpful for future as well as current Time/Bank users in the Dutch network? Was the idea of buying items through time-currency confusing for people? And if so, how did the Time/Store help communicate the values of using this currency?
I wouldn’t say it was confusing, but in a few cases people needed more information on how the project is structured so they could fully understand its potential. I felt some people couldn’t distinguish very clearly between barter and time bank economies. e-flux’s Time/Bank does use a currency, but the currency is time-based, whereas monetary currency is based on credit, loans and debt regulated by the government and specifically a federal reserve. In barter economies, you have to be skilled at or own something the person you are negotiating with is in need of; with a time bank, you don’t own the person you made a transaction with, but the use of someone’s time within the community. You own Time/Bank.
It was also very useful to have a computer in the store for dealing with these specific cases, where we would demonstrate step by step how the website works. I see the website as a platform that, although it was initiated by Anton and Julieta, and has some rules set up, functions as its own live organism through a trust based system. It is open enough for users to negotiate between themselves and set new rules as they engage in transactions. For example, as Paul Glover explained in a workshop we had with him here at e-flux, if one thinks that her/his 1 hour of labor is actually worth 2 hours, because this person is not only skilled but has a lot of experience, there is the possibility of both users negotiating between themselves to a rate both believe is fair. The idea is that people using the platform feel comfortable in what they are accepting to do, and not exploited, and that goes both ways, for the party that is requesting and the party that is performing. If they don’t come to an agreement, that is fine; besides not working together, most importantly, they will not be imposed a rate they feel uncomfortable with.
Experiences and reflections on being a Time/Bank participant
Among working as the store manager I know you have been an active user in the Time/Bank. It would be great to hear a little about what it was like using the web-platform. So for example, were there substantial differences between these ‘jobs’ and everyday wage-labor or even freelance work?
I would say there are no differences in how the jobs are performed, but by how they are worked out, i.e. through the on-line platform. On the site you can find someone you need to fulfill your needs by either going through the listings or by searching user profiles and skills. It is like a combination of a parallel economic system with one of those professional network websites like linkedin. Through Time/Bank you have all the steps that involve working with someone consolidated within the same platform: you can find, negotiate and pay the person sometimes by never even meeting them personally, because they might be working from another country on let’s say, your website, or editing one of your texts, etc…
Did you feel a sense of reciprocity during these exchanges – reciprocity in terms of trust, conviviality, and interest in social exchange outside of the simple transaction? Did the work become more than just work and a platform for a broader kind of engagement?
First and foremost, I would say that trust, conviviality and interest in social exchange are almost a requirement for a successful transaction. One part must feel comfortable in working with the other. And must feel like it is of their interest, be that to gain experience, to meet people with similar interests or even just get time-credit so they can request services after to engage in a transaction. It is not a favor system.
I used Time/Bank on a few occasions, the last one being to find someone that could help me at the Time/Bank currency exchange post at Kopfbau, in Basel, this past June. We were working closely everyday, and I think because of that, we built a relationship. In my personal view, I think the broader engagement will come depending on the individuals involved in a transaction and also depending on the nature of the transaction. For example one of my colleagues found someone through Time/Bank to fix her website, it was a simple fix, they negotiated, and the task was performed in a day. And that was that. The transaction finished then. To put it a simple way, maybe it becomes more than just a work transaction if both parts involved work for a period of time long enough to develop a relationship.
On this note, do you think the NYC network was successful in creating solidarities within the local community? This seems like it would be difficult as NYC is such a transitory space?
I think it does more than that, especially because Time/Bank reaches more than the local community. In a way it is almost not only about the local community, it is about people in e-flux’s Time/Bank with similar interests- mainly people within the cultural community – being able to come together. Time/Bank is not geographically bound. Like I mentioned above, you can exchange with people from anywhere, and when I say that I see the e-flux Time/Bank structure as an organic organism, I only mean that users should be responsible, in case they wish to build strong relationships within the community. Time/Bank is a structure that allows one to do that if they wish, but that will only happen if that’s what individuals within the system want.
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